May 23 04 - 7:30 AM
Two goods articles today on libertyforum one about the fall of christianity
http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_philosophy&Number=1283452&page=&view=&sb=&o=&part=1&vc=1&t=0
and the other about the fact that chriatians/jews "HAVE BECOME THE GREATEST MURDERING FORCE IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND" ;)
http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_philosophy&Number=1478158&page=&view=&sb=&o=&part=1&vc=1&t=0
two great articles two differents styles of writing pointing toward the same evidence;).
eiule
May 23rd 2004 - 4:15 PM
Re: liberty forum Why promote such hatred and bigotry Eiule?
May 23rd 2004 - 4:19 PM
Re: liberty forum i'll think about it but i have one for you dana
Why protect such hatred and bigotry?
eiule
May 23rd 2004 - 4:33 PM
Re: liberty forum I'm not exactly sure what you are asking Eiule. I would never protect (or maybe you meant defend) hatred and bigotry.
If what you are asking is why people (and I am sure you are really referring to Christians and Jews in this case) do bad things....I don't know. I am only a human living on the planet Earth like you and like you seeking answers.
May 23rd 2004 - 4:59 PM
Re: liberty forum this is going nowhere
but before hurting anyone i will censure myself ;).
I thought about it and it might not be the place to post things about the errors of religions.
I think that the 'newage' 1111 movement is an history repeating a new word for religion that will lead to abuse like most religions. I thought that posting about the attrocity of religion might lead to a common reflexion; yea i know i was wrong.
What seem logical to me is not necessary for you dana i accept that. But somewhere one of us must be wrong about our eternal different ;) and i know that it might be me ;).
You believe that the bible will save us all i believe that wisdom/knowledge/light will do it somewhere i am a fucki*** fanatist too ;). I use my tools(mostly logic/knowledge) to proove that you're wrong and you counter attack with bible verses but like you my tools are based on my beliefs.
The main difference as ryan said it is that i really want to be prooved wrong this is my way to evolve. Your religion is based on a PrePerfect idea it cannot evolve further that what it is now.
do evolution is important? give me your opinion on that.
eiule
May 23rd 2004 - 6:18 PM
Re: liberty forum eiule-
although i tend to agree with your views on religion and what the bible really is etc...i think its the constant attention you give christians and jews that leads people to believe youre a bigot (which i dont think you are).
all religions fuck up the world imo. muslims are part of the mess we are in. hindus have done awful things in the name of their gods. the list goes on... make no mistake- if the tables were turned in the middle east the jews would not be having such a swell time. both sides want the other side gone. its all about separation.
i used to rant and rave a lot more about religion (especially christianity). trust me eiule- i believe a lot of what you say to be true. after a while i started to think about it. i was taking such a strong stand and so sure i was right that i was no better than those i was 'fighting'.
i was trying hard to get people to share my belief. i was trying to change peoples minds. that doesnt work. in fact- it has the opposite effect. it strengthens the resolve of the other person. that fact works both ways.
so i stopped. im not perfect and i still goad myself into responding sometimes to things i think are totally wrong. i think healthy debate is still a good thing. saying the same thing over and over again regardless of what side you are on is not healthy. its the same old same old.
now i just try and find common ground. i try and look at what we have in common and work with that. i talk about plans and ways to make the future better. i try and be an example. i dont always succeed but its a path im trying to take.
im not going to change peoples minds. trying to is what 'they' want us to do. the people with ultimate power dont care whether you worship a god or humanity- they just want you to keep discussing it. its safer than having us actually act.
as for 1111 being presented as a new age phenomenon...well it bugs me too. i cant help where this all got categorized- it happened before i got here. so i choose to work within the system to change it. sure there is potential for all of this to become some new age/religious movement. all you can do is work to make sure that doesnt happen.
i guess what im saying is this- action is the key to everything. we can spend our time arguing but then that becomes the action (its one we all know well). its why ALL of us fall into that trap once in a while. i just dont want to argue anymore. so i dont.
instead i choose to see what we have in common and work with that. its a proactive move. people will know my philosophy by the way i act. as long as i am tolerant and caring what i believe shouldnt matter. afterall- religion wouldnt be a bad thing if people just did what their gods told them. they all say the same thing- love your neighbour as you would yourself.
my take on things (for what its worth)
michael :)
May 23rd 2004 - 6:31 PM
Re: liberty forum "that leads people to believe youre a bigot"
i should have said SOME people. to be honest i dont think people really think this anyhow. just trying to point out where these comments come from...
michael :)
May 23rd 2004 - 7:10 PM
Re: liberty forum Very nicely said Michael.
Eiule if you are asking me if I believe in evolution...yes and no. If you are asking me if I believe in Darwin's "Origin of the Species". No. I do'nt believe that life evolved from some primordial ooze millions of years ago. Lightning or some other reaction happened that made single cell creatures to to turn into fish reptiles mammals etc. I prefer to believe that a creator made each of us with loving care. I prefer to believe that He still loves each of us as His creation. It is because of the free-will to decide for ourselves that has caused the pain and suffering in the world.
In my mind it is easier for me to believe this than to accept the primordial ooze scenario.
I do however feel that Darwin was correct in his "Survival of the Fittest". This is why birds with more brillant plummage attract mates easier. Why the weak in the elk herd are eaten by the predators inorder to make the species stronger. And on and on.
I answered you because I know you get upset when I do'nt answer your questions. BTW I never said you were a bigot; I just asked why you would promote it. Only you know the answer.
May 23rd 2004 - 7:51 PM
Re: Re: liberty forum Hi Dana
I agree with you 100% Once I used to be very 'rational'. NOw I believe that a creator created us. Intelligent design as some folks call it....and as my Guru says "Mysticism begins when 'logic' ends." Because we with our puny human minds and senses cannot perceive/fathom everything.
May 23rd 2004 - 10:30 PM
Re: liberty forum Dana & Manjee
One thing I wanted to ask about your belief that a creator made humans. Dana doesn't like the idea that we initially came from a primordial ooze. As I recall the Bible says that man was born when God touched the dirt and conjured him up or some such thing. (That's not exactly it but I think that's pretty close.) So not to quibble---although I DO love to quibble---is there really a big difference between God's finger in the dirt versus a cosmic mistake when we mutated out of that infamous ooze? Either way it ain't such a glamorous debut for humankind.
And gosh we've done well for ourselves ever since haven't we?! ;) Thousands of years and we still kill each other because our skin colours happen to be different. Humans can kill and pillage and hate better than all the other species on this planet that we treat like crud.
Fiend
May 23rd 2004 - 10:42 PM
Re: liberty forum and on the first day god said pull my finger
(things have stunk ever since :P)
michael :)
May 24th 2004 - 2:09 AM
Re: liberty forum “You believe that the bible will save us all i believe that wisdom/knowledge/light will do it”
The thing is we all start with our base believes to build upon.
The more knowledge is gathered the more underlying believes become fixated.
When acquiring more knowledge that does not “disprove” your underlying believes without a shadow of a doubt those believes will fixate even more.
You grow as a person but at the same time you have a tunnelled view on reality.
Light comes down your tunnelled view but it’s just a small beam of light.
The power lies in the ability and willingness to share and discuss points of view.
The awakening lies in the ability and the urge to step into the tunnelled view of someone else and try to see the light from a totally different perspective.
The wisdom lies in the ability to go back to the roots of what you have in common with others rather than to focus on the differences between them.
With this you will open up a broader more tolerant flexible view of everything.
You might even adopt believes and integrate them with your own believe even if they appear to be incompatible. Meaning also that you found patterns in what is believed to be chaos.
That what is chaining us are as much believes as it is science both with or without prove.
We forge our own chains by aging knowledge onto knowledge believe onto believe and when we are of respectable age our chains are almost solid.
Wisdom comes with age but the opposite is as much true.
Mark
May 24th 2004 - 6:13 AM
Re: liberty forum Fiend. You say there is'nt much difference in whether or not we were a cosmic mistake or created when God touched the dirt. In my opinion there is no comparison. I think this is the basis of each of us....the very essence of our being.
I will try to explain it this way. If we use the mistake concept we saying we came from chaos. It is like you throw pieces of metal against a wall for a million years or so and.... BOOM!....a working Rolex watch is created.
On the other hand I prefer to believe that there is a creator that molded man into the perfect likeness of himself. He has given each of us a unique spirit. A soul.
Humans have done lots of harm to each other and this world. But there is so much good out there too. We have done wonderful things to each other and this world.
We are either a mistake or perfection....I prefer to believe perfection.
May 25th 2004 - 10:20 AM
Re: liberty forum OK it's taken me some time to get through all the posts I missed in almost 4 days!!lol..
I just have to add here that I believe in Evolution AND God...I don't think there is one or the other...
God did create us.. and like Dana said.. with loving care..
I think our learning and adapting.. evolving started way back when and God has watched with pride ever since....
I have an issue with the Adam and Eve thing....I think of it more of a story...to show us about choices...but whos to say life only began as we are now...animals have evolved over the years to their enviroment...and are we not after all animals?
To me it comes (in a round about way) back to the alien thing... are we arrogant enough to think that mankind the way it is now is the way it all began and the only way "life" can be explained?... tell that to the single celled fertilized egg growing it it's mothers womb..multipying millions of times...changing... growing limbs...beomming a fetus..being born... HUMAN... like we are now...
if we can look at the growth of an embryo...can't we see that perhaps this is how we grew back then?.. perhaps outside of a womb at the time.. for Gods hands was our womb?
Heather
May 25th 2004 - 10:28 AM
Re: liberty forum heather
I believe in Evolution AND God
I was thinking about this subject because of this thread yesterday.
For me it's the same
evolution and God together hand in hand.
Mark
May 25th 2004 - 11:18 AM
Re: liberty forum or like Marilyn Manson said:This is-evolution monkey man and god."
There is also a missing link. I think that we are mixed with many aliens and cells from meteors and comets. There is also karma I am sure that Manjee could write more about karma. I often feel pain for animal suffering in labs but maybe they where humans in past lives who where very bad toward animals...and now they suffer again. It is a chain of suffering.
I see the only way to stop suffering-by ending others to suffer.
When I say-others I mean lakes and mountains and woods and air too.
I believe that action is not perfect but intention is...
Intention could be perfect if there is no suffering of others. Like in western medicine...intention might seem perfect-helping kids with cancer helping HIV patients but on the other hand- "evil doctor magicians" test on animals make others suffer.
We are still learning to live in human bodies...It takes some time to adjust.
I feel that duality is essential part of us for we are all made out of love and lust as complementary values. I also feel as 1111 is a crack mode for duality...we could learn to balance and go beyond duality where duality is Self.
I also believe that religions often separate people. And words like liberty and freedom is very much so manipulated with. And-word-People.
But I also believe If we at least knew something from each religion or belief system-there would not be wars anymore for then we would understand that there is no separation for God is sparkling in all eyes.
And If you really look other people and animals in the eyes-you might see- God.
PS Mark found patterns in what is believed to be chaos (i like fractal pictures too).
Also in Judaistic structure of hell (from scriptures not to be confused) people are helping each other by feeding spoons actually feeding each others...because they are given food but spoons are too long so the only way to eat-is to learn how to feed others.
So even in "hell" there is some humanity..and soon or later we'll have to learn it....
Peace
l.
May 25th 2004 - 3:43 PM
Re: liberty forum Very passionate words everyone and I enjoyed reading all of this stuff. The Genesis story is fascinating (true or not) and so is the theory of evolution (true or not).
As for human perfection all I can say is "if only". And if we were created in the image of God we as a species have sure pissed that away.
Fiend
May 26th 2004 - 12:16 PM
Re: liberty forum Eiule:
I appreciate your rabble-rousing posts. Very fun indeed - and of course wildly important ;-). All jabbing aside I observed your remark about the 11:11 phenom becoming just another religion given time (no pun intended). Do you really think that you have served enough time on planet Earth to make such a bold statement? Have you "observed and repeated" such a thing as the 1111 phenomenon enough times in this lifetime to really know what the fuck you are talking about? I don't so please enlighten me. ;-) Perhaps we are experiencing a "relgigious movement" that begins within if you know what I mean or don't mean then feel free to say "amen" or "ahem". What I think I mean is that I see the 11:11 experience is a spontaneous movement within a larger context of consciousness than the "you" or the "me". It is the "peek-a-boo" of a larger collective memory that we checked at the door upon entrance to this place. It's a very well-timed awakening that is just doing it's job. And doing it well considering it was orchestrated by us/god.
just a little perhaps for ya
chris
May 26th 2004 - 12:22 PM
Re: liberty forum I should add Eiule that I say all this in a spirit of inquisitive comaradarie and not ill-will. You seem okay with debate and discussion so I won't worry about it. Also most religious movements seem to have been born of proselytization/evangelizing. The 11:11 is quite the non-human preacher is it not? You could be right about the 11:11/religion thing but my hunches are that this is a new thing. Quite unlike the archaic religious organizations that currently dinosaur the world. What do you think?
-chris